Q&A on Icynene and Wine Rooms

Below is a back and forth between Therma Seal and one of our customers becoming educated on the effective use of Icynene Proseal to optimize temperature control in wine rooms.

I do like the spray insulation and believe it will offer a superior product but have a few questions. If you want I can speak directly to the rep if you want to provide the contact info to save you the time.

1)     What about credits for the 3” and 1” specified AP foiled polyiscoyanurate foam sheating?  Yes…I forgot to mention that…we also have to get a credit for the insulation that presently shows on the plans.

2)     I assumed the installed ceiling clips served two purposes to hold in the 1” sheating and to attach the 5/8” greenboard. Can we leave the clips, spray on ceiling insulation and still screw 5/8” to clips (not sure we get R-value but it must be better than the 1” proposed board.)  They have a problem using anything less than a 2-1/2” stud on a ceiling installation becasu they have to make sure that they leave a minimum ¼” air gap from the back of the drywall to their spray insulation and it difficult to get their insulation dead flat when it’s applied horizontally and it’s difficult if not imposible to carve it back because it gets so hard…they can explain this in more detail.  Correct, however if a ceiling grid is created below the concrete floor with a 2.5” gap we can apply above the grid directly to the concrete

3)     Would like more detail on how the product hardens before we can consider eliminating mesh. Regardless, I still think the studs on the framed wine wall should be 12” OC.   They’re goin to prepare a sample so you can see how hard it is and they insist that with their product in the wall the wall becomes tremendously impenetrable…plus I think the elimination of having twice the amount of screws to deal with could be some sort of a moisture benefit in the long run.  I would prefer to state table top hard, such that an electric saw would be required to cut through, and/or sledge hammer.

4)     What is the R-Value of the Icynene Classic Max at the various thicknesses

a.      block walls at 3-1/2” (perhaps we can reduce to 2-1/2” here to net the same designed wall thickness)  They said they need to get 3 inches of their product on the block walls to get the same overall R factor that we get with the current system…they need the 3-1/2” studs so they can maintain the air gap between the back of the drywall and their foam.  There is synergy of benefit when utilizing spray foam is that it provides the benefit of an “Air Seal” with “R Value”.  Consequently, once an air seal achieved no additional benefit received in that department with additional foam.  Since, R-Value is only the measure of conduction, the foam efficiency has diminishing returns beyond the R13 (1.875”) level.  Thus the effectiveness of say R13 Icynene exceeds the effectiveness R21 conventional products.  The primary reason for the Icynene Closed Cell is to eliminate all air gaps and kee the indoor temperature form mixing with warmer air, eliminate chance for mold or mildew.  This wine room will be adequately sealed with a minimum 2” of Icynene.   The Icynene registers at an R7/inch of aged application.

b.      ceiling at 2-1/2” (we have plenty of room here) or ceiling at 1” if we leave clips. If we go to 2-1/2” ceiling studs maybe we just leave clips anyway as they will be completely covered.  That’s a possibility but we’re not talking any great cost to remove them…I suggest we get rid of them so we don’t have to put the 2-1/2” studs between them.  Yes, preferred or as mentioned above no clips just 2” air space above grid.

c.      interior walls I assume at 4-1/2” thick of spray insulation?  I thought we have all 3-1/2” studs…which they can get 3 ibches of insulation in…how would we get 4-1/2”  Correct 3.5” studs will be adequate.